That's the way I'm seeing it to but firmly believe while the ruling council and Ahmadinejad are going to dig in their heels on the election they are going to have to soften their stance on everything else.

I'm still holding out hope for a "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it any more" revolution and drastic change, but failing that just a more moderate Iran wouldn't be bad.

Thanks TCL. This is some amazing information and it would be so cool to be able to actually do something to help from over here.

 

To my mind, they have no credibility or pretence of democracy anyway; I just think that's what THEY will do, and pretend that it's salvaged some. I doubt it will do them any good.

 

I think this says it all really.....

Iranian authorities announce sweeping new restrictions on foreign media

https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8103269.stm

 

Yes, I do think the genie is out of the bottle on that one. It's like the former Soviet Union -- there's no easy way to clamp down on dissent once people become more tech savvy and aware of their surroundings. Makes me want to go Twitter, which I consider almost as much a waste of time as hanging around here.

 

That may or may not be so Kimi...but what is happening there right now is unprecedented.

I'm not sure if this link puts anyone through to it who is not signed up there.....perhaps you could let me know.

*not_secure_link*twitter.com/home#search?q=#Iranelection

 

I'm wondering where you were hearing this from? I have always known that the people of Iran were much more liberal and fair-minded than their government was. I also don't recall anyone claiming that the people of Iran were on par with, say, the people of Palestine who are majority radicalized to one form or another; either actively supporting terrorism or giving aid and comfort, as it were. The Persian people (as many of them will openly refer to themselves as) have always had a more Western mindset when it comes to things like freedom and democracy but they've also been under the grip of the Ayatollahs for decades.

This seems common knowledge to me so I'm baffled why you keep referring to this as some sort of secret that has been kept from us.

And, to those of you deploring the violence, what you may well be seeing here is the beginning of a true revolution. It's too early to tell if it has that sort of staying power, but no revolution is bloodless and without sacrifice. A people will never be free until they decide for themselves that the time is right and the Old Guard never goes quietly. Freedom is never given, it has to be earned.

-S-

 

Well let's see here ShakeZula, how about that the US Government hasn't been willing to negotiate or even talk to Iran for the past 30+ years? How about during the last campaign when John McCain was signing; Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran? How about George Bush declaring Iran one of the axis of Evil? How about Israel, the US government, and the US media claiming Iran's sole intent is the wipe Israel off the face of the earth? How about Israel, the US media, and countless people on this site claiming that Israel must bomb Iran with preemptive air strikes? How about people in the media and again several people on this site claiming that if Iran gets nuclear weapons they will use them because they are Muslims who want to martyr themselves for their religion? That's where I'm hearing this. I don't recall hearing anywhere that the people of Iran have a much more western mindset and love freedom and democracy even though I've been saying the about the same thing for more than 30 years.

But by all means lets all remember that the next time Israel and/or the US threatens to bomb them. By all means lets all remember that the next time our president wants to open dialog or diplomatic relations with them. By all means lets remember that the people of Iran are much more like us than different from us.

 

Yeah. All perfectly legitimate reactions to a rogue state. None of that mentions the people of Iran, merely how to deal with the government.

However, what I do remember hearing a few years ago was the reluctance to tamper too much with Iran because the people there were very displeased with their government and that a regime change brought about internally was surely just around the corner. That the Iranians, for the most part, wanted to be more democratic but because of past history, severely distrusted the U.S. and would not put up with any foreign involvement. There was a lot of talk about should we fund/arm opposition groups or just leave them be since if we did decided to fund them, the mood of the Iranian people might just be that if an opposition group rose to power they would be mistrusted as a U.S. puppet because we had a hand in it.

Governments don't open dialogues with the people of any particular country, they do it with the government. Iran is a state sponsor of terror and, whether you think it's wrong or not, they have been classified as a rogue state because no one, not even the Europeans believe that if Iran gets the nuclear fuel for their reactors that they won't also attempt to weaponize it.

But either way, nothing you posted talks about the political leanings of the people of Iran.

-S-

 

Well sure Shake that makes perfect sense. If we or Israel bomb Iran we wouldn't be bombing the people of Iran just the government. Why didn't I think of that.

And actually you've got it just backwards. We have refused to open any dialog with either the government or the people of Iran and instead have publicly demonized Iran since the 1970's when as recently as last year the Bush administration was still funneling money into Iran dissident groups to try and spark trouble and perhaps a regime change.

You're also quite off base when you say the people of Iran have always wanted more freedom. That's why they comparing what's going on now to the Iranian revolution of the 1970's when almost everyone in the country was in favor of becoming a theocracy and it has not been until recently that discontent has been growing and that's mostly due to the economy and lack of opportunity.

But here's a little test for you. Why don't you just show me where in the main stream media its been said that the people of Iran are actually very much like us. Go ahead I'll wait.

And in the meantime I will point out again that even the government of Iran can't be as it has been portrayed and as you are portraying it here. If they were they would not allow all the demonstrations, criticisms, and campaigning that's been going on for more than a year now.

I think its pretty logical that a government can't be completely opposite of the people they govern so obviously if there are things the Iranian people have in common with the west then their government can be that much completely different which there has been lots of evidence over the past 30 years to indicate. As an example the Supreme council told Ahmadinejad to knock of the outrageous things he was saying and he did.

And the idea that Iran might want to acquire nuclear weapons and the idea that if they did they would instantly use them are two vastly different things but which idea gets all the press? The idea that Iran is crazy enough to want to martyr themselves just so they can attack Israel. I've been fighting that insane logic for several years now but so far its been a losing battle.

That's why especially europe has had an open dialog and good relations with Iran for the same amount of decades that we have been demonizing them.

 

So far, so good...

 

Soviet Union, or, as the hundreds of East Germans that rode a train across the "grenze" to the West in 1989. I was shocked by that news. No one expected the reunification of Germany so soon.

 

​

 

Channel 4 Video news from yesterday....despite the ban

*not_secure_link*andrewsullivan.the.../2009/06/reporting-regardless-of-the-ban.html

 

Well I see the death toll continues to rise with some sources reporting 32 people have now been killed in the Iranian protests. And the government has said more "rioters" will die if the protests continue.

But today an estimated 500,000 Iranians ignored that warning and hit the streets again.

I'm waiting to see what the Supreme council has to say. They were supposed to convene in an emergency meeting and the significant thing about that is this council is the one that actually has the power to remove Ayatollah Ali Khamenei as the Supreme leader. I doubt that is going to happen but its still significant because at least one council member has said the foundations of Iran's Islamic state is at risk.

In the meantime despite their best efforts the Iranian government has been unable to stop reports from getting out of the country over the internet. Its an amazing thing this internet is.

These photos actually very much remind me of scenes from the US civil rights marches and anti-war protests of the 1960's.

 

I've been following it, and saw something that said the only way out for Khomeini and the Mullahs is to buy time and then throw another election. If they do, do you think it would go legitimate, throw it for Mousavi, or rig it for Dinnerjacket again, but this time with a less blatant fix?

(Seriously, whoever taught these guys how to fix an election forgot to mention that subtlety is very important...)

 

Also, this:

*not_secure_link*narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/iran-boneheaded-coup

 

That's a good one Foe. With all the information available on the internet you'd have thought they would have googled Dade County and picked up some pointers.

 

Nah, I think there's something the Koran that forbids the use of hanging chads. (That was actually one of the other points. Based off of a certain reading of the Koran and Iranian law, if they do announce the election was staged, it would that heads might literally roll. Something about lying to the faithful, accusations of treason...)

But still. A 2:1 majority vote, in every polling place? Including the hometowns and power centers? Its like they just didn't give a shit.

 

How about announcing the election results BEFORE the polls even closed when the ballots have to be HAND COUNTED? Is it any wonder the Iranian people called a bullshit on that?

But taking a page right out of the Bush playbook they have gone to their version of the Supreme Court to certify the results.

All kidding aside, however, I have not seen a public uprising like this since the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989. And I sure hope it turns out better than that one did.